|
Post by coolbyrne on Sept 14, 2007 6:08:32 GMT -5
I takes me back to the quote by Mandana in the latest AE interview, where she talks about how the interviewer is asking her serious questions and taking the show seriously, when in fact they never got that kind of reaction (by the media) when the show originally aired. I wonder if it's just a case of rose-coloured glasses/hindsight, where now we can look back on those two seasons (I agree about the alarming decline in S3) and think, "Wow, that was some fantastic stuff going on."? How did some of you original British viewers think when you saw these episodes for the first time? Something to ask Simone Lahbib. I think it was a culmination of all three, to be honest. The direction of the show had to change because they knew both SL and MJ were leaving at the end of 3, which meant the writing changed to move the focus to other characters (the Nikki-to-Yvonne shift the most noted one), and quite frankly, I think Simone was already distancing herself from the show. Which touches upon something RM and I have discussed to death- the idea that MJ saw the role as an opportunity beyond a pay cheque, and SL saw it as a job. So when the time came for her (Simone) to leave, it was easy for her to cut the ties and just "play" the part. I never felt she was the part. I'll give her credit, though- both she AND MJ were given some awful, awful scenes in S3. I'll be watching the TWoP board with great interest over the next couple of weeks as LOGO gets further into S3!
|
|
|
Post by topcat on Sept 14, 2007 10:23:21 GMT -5
I takes me back to the quote by Mandana in the latest AE interview, where she talks about how the interviewer is asking her serious questions and taking the show seriously, when in fact they never got that kind of reaction (by the media) when the show originally aired. In truth? Mandana just wasn't interviewed by the British Press full stop. It wasn't a case of not being taken seriously. Simone was interviewed by the Scottish press and everything else revolved around Debra Stephenson. The press became more aware once ex soap star Claire King joined as Karen and then everything was about her and Debra! You only have to read the 'rant' link I posted earlier to see what they thought about 3. Series one and two were adored in general. All pretty much like the TWP thread without some fans having prior knowledge of the story and influencing debate. The boards were heaving and 60 posts could be made in 5 minutes. It was THAT popular. It got to series 3 and, week after week, posters got more disheartened. Everyone pretty much guessed N & H were coming to a conclusion - mainly because Simone did not remain quiet about leaving - but I think it was a shock that they were missing for huge chunks whilst more and more episodes revolved around characters that lasted barely an episode. The main complaint was about the loss of 'ensemble' cast. The first series had every character in every episode and each linked in some way. By series 3, characters went missing for episodes on end. Fans got frustrated at the fact that there were more episodes and yet plots were rushed. Podger could have been a good slow build but, instead, she's cured in 10 minutes! Who would have guessed that Nikki's appeal would appear from nowhere and take up such little screentime in a 16 week run and yet hours were taken up with some ludicrous story involving Fenner and brothels? The writers seemed to change character traits to fit a particular story, if an actor wasn't in use. The Yvonne/Charlotte episodes was a classic example of this. I can remember watching it and thinking 'this is a Nikki scene'. Shaz discovered singing and guitar skills overnight. She couldn't even bang a tamborine in series 2! Helen seemed to change on a week by week basis. I think this is very true. On more than one occasion Simone mentioned money. In one interview, she was asked what she enjoyed about doing the show. Her response 'for the pay cheque'. Yes, it was said as a joke but I could never imagine MJ responding in the same manner. Absolutely. Badly written in general. That's why I find it strange how some posters on TWP try and justify badly written scenes as if there was some deep meaning when a fan says they don't understand what was going on. How many times must Mandana have groaned when she saw 'huh?' in the script? The scenes in the car in ep 1 series 3 were probably the worst scenes ever. Dialogue didn't make sense. It was as if chunks were cut and cobbled together in the editing room. Why spend precious minutes getting a character to talk about looking like Dusty Springfield instead of something meaningful that gave us a clue as to the depth of emotions going off?
|
|
|
Post by endangeredspecies on Sept 15, 2007 15:08:04 GMT -5
You're not going to believe this but I watched all the series - yes I know I should be awarded a medal for bravery beyond the call of duty. I just couldn't believe the whole thing and was expecting, in my naivety, that the it would get better!! It never happened of course, infact it got gloriously worse as the years went by. Both the plot lines and the acting bordering, nay, falling headlong into farce. I've stopped reading any thread on any board that has an in-depth analysis of all-things BG. I just can't be bothered anymore. Perhaps, if I'd been around when the whole thing kicked off I'd be more interested but quite frankly I just want MJ to come back in a role of real worth and quality so that we have something new and worthwhile to discuss, This is in no way a criticism of anyone who wishes to continue with sensible discussions but I'm past it. Please don't ban me. I do however, agree with something TC said and which has only just struck me as being true. SL did lose some of her sparkle and dynamism in 3. My guess, she was already planning to leave, they knew it, her storyline therefore became less relevant and unlike MJ she didn't appear to give it her all until the final ep.
|
|
|
Post by topcat on Sept 16, 2007 3:14:02 GMT -5
You're not going to believe this but I watched all the series - yes I know I should be awarded a medal for bravery beyond the call of duty. Blimey you really do! I managed to stick it out until mid series 5 I think. Like you, it was with the hope that it would improve. Instead it just got worse and worse. I think I realised my beloved show was never to return when a whole episode was spent with Bodybag running around like Hattie Jacques trying to hide a prisoners dead body from a visiting prison inspection team. Tsk, tsk ES. You mean you manage to get through your day without wondering what facial twitch number 3 from Wing Governor Stewart in scene 6 at 25 seconds precisely means? I see that over on TWP disheartened fans are starting to be told 'don't judge the series 'til you've seen it all' and also that 'it's a bit of a myth that most British fans hated series 3'. Hmmm. I think the rose coloured specs are also 3 inches thick. There were positives in series 3 - the friendship of Yvonne and Nikki was one. What happened? a couple of excellent scenes and then....nothing. It disappeared from whence it came. It was brilliant seeing Nikki have some lighter scenes but, again, the writers chose to exclude both characters for 2/3 episodes at a time (but at separate times) to concentrate on the lunacy that was Di Barker, a character that seemed to dominate the series eventually. To be fair to Ms Lahbib, maybe she got frustrated with the ever changing character of Helen and the substandard writing and plots. Mandana was very underused and ended up purely being Helen's toy but at least the character of Nikki remained pretty much true to the original. and so say all of us!
|
|
|
Post by coolbyrne on Sept 17, 2007 17:53:39 GMT -5
Please direct yourselves to my thought-provoking thesis on the intricately woven episode, Oh, What a Night! I'm hoping someone will come along and be dazzled by the doctorate approach and publish it, thus taking me from this simple fandom and plopping my ass in an ivory tower.
|
|
|
Post by topcat on Sept 18, 2007 11:37:36 GMT -5
Verse 1: Oh, what a night. Late December back in '63. What a very special time for me, 'Cause I remember what a night. Meaning: This is clearly indicative of the shock Helen experienced upon seeing Nikki on the doorstep. Confusion, temporary aphasia, and outright loss of detail recollection such as names, places and dates are well-documented among sufferers of Acute Stress Disorder[1]. SHED used this inaccurate date reference to highlight Helen’s state of mind, and allowed viewers a glimpse of that confusion. Brilliant and, of course, "them and us" is clearly linked to Pink Floyd and the fact that SHED were suggesting that Helen's battle with the old boys network was on par to being on the Dark Side of The Moon. By turning the title around from "us and them" it showed that Helen, herself, would have her world turned around. The subtext of the love triangle with Nikki and Sean was a subtle nod to the triangle on the album cover. Can't wait to see your analysis of "Shit Happens"
|
|
|
Post by topcat on Oct 21, 2007 3:42:41 GMT -5
Well, it has been interesting to see the reaction over on TWP as series 3 is progressing. In Britain, the response was hundreds of posts along the lines of 'what the f*ck has happened to a once excellent show?'. This led to the Rant at Shed. Over on TWP? A complete lack of posts! When series 1 and 2 were airing, I think I am right in saying that the thread was very popular and busy. They are now getting about 4 posts per episode. I must admit that I was expecting more negative threads over there but, then, the one regular poster who did start to question the quality was being constantly told she was wrong by a particularly biased (and for some odd reason, highly revered) poster. I think this has resulted in complete apathy from everyone else. I think I am right in saying this week was the Shell/Denny visit bodybag ep. To me, that was when BG jumped the shark. I didn't find the episode 'horrific' (well, I did but not horrific as in scary ) I thought it was badly written, badly acted and just plain BAD. I had actually got to the stage where I wanted Debra Stephenson to just leave because she was being given so much air time in what was supposed to be an ensemble piece. It had been in the press that she was leaving and Shed seemed to really milk her exit. That is why Nikki's reduction in screen appearances was all the more galling. I think we all expected a major few ep's covering her appeal. I don't think any of us ever thought her exit from the show would be reduced to a 2 minute segment at the very end - one that was bloody interupted by the re emergence of Shell Dockley Can I just say that I am starting to get really bored waiting for Ms Jones to get a decent role! It's nearly 3 years since she played Ria in Doctors. Surely, this can't just be about her being overlooked. It's got to be a choice, hasn't it? I think her agent needs to start kicking ass.....
|
|
|
Post by justafan on Oct 21, 2007 22:44:18 GMT -5
"Can I just say that I am starting to get really bored waiting for Ms Jones to get a decent role! It's nearly 3 years since she played Ria in Doctors. Surely, this can't just be about her being overlooked. It's got to be a choice, hasn't it? I think her agent needs to start kicking ass....." That's the disappointing thing....it doesn't look as though she wants her agent to "kick ass".finding a new role/s. For whatever reason I don't think an ongoing acting career is on the front burner for M J....that's both disappointing for us, her fans, and just sad because I know all of us saw what a great talent she possesses. The entire world is being cheated by not having the opportunity to see Mandana perform.
|
|
|
Post by endangeredspecies on Oct 22, 2007 14:32:43 GMT -5
"Can I just say that I am starting to get really bored waiting for Ms Jones to get a decent role! It's nearly 3 years since she played Ria in Doctors. Surely, this can't just be about her being overlooked. It's got to be a choice, hasn't it? I think her agent needs to start kicking ass....." That's the disappointing thing....it doesn't look as though she wants her agent to "kick ass".finding a new role/s. For whatever reason I don't think an ongoing acting career is on the front burner for M J....that's both disappointing for us, her fans, and just sad because I know all of us saw what a great talent she possesses. The entire world is being cheated by not having the opportunity to see Mandana perform. Then I wish she'd let us know and put us all out of our misery.
|
|
|
Post by topcat on Oct 24, 2007 11:17:45 GMT -5
Oh dear. I think today's announcement on Splodgy suggests we should be careful what we wish for.... She's thinking of getting a 'proper job'. Having said that, the news seems a little contradictory in that it says she has not considered taking major roles because of bringing up her son but then in brackets says 'not that there has been any'. So I'm not sure what to make of it. At first it reads like her agent is aware that she will not take major commitments and it's her choice but then it seems she's disappointed in not being offered any! When I saw there was a snippet of news about 'her lack of roles' I half expected a pregnancy announcement, if I'm honest.
|
|
|
Post by coolbyrne on Oct 25, 2007 15:58:12 GMT -5
I agree. I think it's a mixture of apathy and the feeling of being put down by a BNF ("Big Name Fan"- someone whose name is recognized either throughout the fandom or on the bigger boards). It's also obvious that BNF is vigorously backed up by another fan, so I think most people think, "What's the point? I'm going to get contradicted in a rather condescending way." The irony is, the board is called "Television WITHOUT Pity", but if you have the nerve to say anything that can even remotely be construed as negative, you're met with a 5000-word rebuttal with footnotes and a bibiliography that 9 times out of 10 goes back to the BNF's own site. I privately emailed the one poster who had questioned the quality of the show and thanked her for being a contrasting opinion in a thread that is pretty much a mutual admiration society for the show and a small handful of posters.
As for MJ taking a proper job... I think it's purely a lack of interest, to be honest. (Or an apathetic agent. Or both.) Because really, she could have a full-time acting job that wouldn't necessarily be 12-16 hour days. Surely there are enough roles that would give her a fairly steady pay cheque without having to be a major role. At this rate, the next role she'll be playing WILL be Gertrude in "Hamlet"!!
|
|
|
Post by topcat on Oct 26, 2007 7:48:58 GMT -5
if you have the nerve to say anything that can even remotely be construed as negative, you're met with a 5000-word rebuttal with footnotes and a bibiliography that 9 times out of 10 goes back to the BNF's own site. Quite and I thought you weren't supposed to promote your own sites Shame you can't point her here but, then, I think the poster is avoiding spoilers. I don't blame the agent. Up until she fell pregnant, she was getting pretty constant work. I think none of us are surprised by the bit about her not considering roles due to her commitments to bringing up her son. It was the rest that threw me a bit but, having re read it, there are a number of factors: 1. interpretation of the written word - both the actual wording of the 'news' and how that 'news' was originally relayed 2. it has clearly come as the result of yet more pestering for signed goods 3. the news is contradictory in that it says it's not likely she will be doing anything but then that it's been put up in the hope it's not needed 4. a lot of the 'news' seems to contain opinion of a third party rather than an actual Mandana quote eg all actors are struggling because the BBC has made cuts 5. if you are not considering major roles because of motherhood, why would you be looking for a proper job? I would have thought small acting work was more condusive to motherhood than 9-5 every day. You can't swan off to Spain for months on end either. 6. whilst the bit about her maternal role is relevent news, did she really intend for the 'proper job' bit to be in the public domain or was it an off the cuff aside My feeling is that she is not considering roles that will mean her being away from home for any time and she's not interested in stage work. This leaves small roles and her agent knows the boundaries she has set. To be honest, I thought most actors had fall back jobs and felt MJ must have had another source of income anyway. Even during BG and London Bridge, her co stars were doing other stuff during filming breaks but she never did. I had visions of her teaching yoga somewhere as a side line and that was why she wasn't that career driven on the acting front. Like you say, Coolbyrne, it sounds more of a disinterest in pursuing acting jobs than a desperation at not getting parts (that you wouldn't accept anyway....) and the rest is the embellishment/interpretation of a third party
|
|
|
Post by topcat on Mar 31, 2008 13:47:42 GMT -5
Here's another thing. Why is it that any press report that has ever slagged BG off is compared to Jack the Ripper and any paper saying it's wonderful is Florence Nightingale?
If it's a tabloid, well, what do you expect? They are the gutter press.
If it's a broadsheet, they are being foolish and childish.
But, then, if a journalist who happens to have done favourable articles for another outlet gets an article printed by said gutter press and it's rosey, well that's just fabulous, darling.
It was the same with The Musical reviews. If a paper gave a bad review, it was the paper being incapable of getting the nuance of Shed's masterpiece. If it was good, the journalist was top notch.
It is all about personal opinion. There is no hidden agenda. I adored BG series1-2 and enjoyed some of 3. I read reviews at the time and, whilst I didn't agree with some of the comments made by various journalists/reviewers, I did understand where they were coming from. It could be camp. It could be a bit tacky. So what? I enjoyed it. Why do some feel afronted and take it all so personally, especially when it was nearly 10 years ago? It got a massive audience who, clearly, enjoyed it so did the reviewers even matter???
|
|
|
Post by coolbyrne on May 27, 2008 12:00:15 GMT -5
Because for them, Bad Girls isn't just a television show. You can see it in the manner in which they spend so much time deconstructing it and analysing it that it means much, much more than that. They have found something in this show that reaffirms their own life, or has awakened something in their life that is on the level of an epiphany. It's not just entertainment- it's a reflection of a personal struggle/belief/hardship/hope/whatever. The story of Nikki and Helen has become their story, and the characters of Nikki and Helen have become "people" to look up to. This is why I hold the personal belief that Mandana Jones doesn't get the interest outside of Bad Girls that Simone Lahbib does. Well, I have two theories on that, actually. First and foremost, it appears most of these hardcore fans are Helen fans. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the majority see themselves as Helen- this intelligent woman who struggled with coming to terms with her own sexuality. Who also happened to fall in love with an incredibly hot woman. So, Simone Lahbib has become Helen Stewart and the sun shines out of her backside. Which leads to my second opinion, which is, as unbelievable as it may sound, people don't see SL when they watch WitB or MotG- they see Helen Stewart. Sure, the characters are different, but these fans have developed a large enough sense of suspension of disbelief to gloss over that fact. That is to say, Alex is really just Helen doing something different now that she's left the prison service. Nikki and Helen are out there somewhere, living fulfilling lesbian lives; Nikki running a nightclub and driving a Porsche, Helen off doing whatever. Crazy idea, yeah? Any crazier than thinking that the Nikki/Helen events of "Coming Out" symbolized the events of "Romeo and Juliet"? Or Helen being an homage to Jane Tennison? Or the rotating fan in the background behind Helen in "Tangled Web" indicating some sort of angelic halo?? "That's Saint Helen to you!" It doesn't help that I find SL a fairly generic actress with average range. Of course, my bias would naturally indicate I feel the opposite about Mandana- I think she has a wide range of emotions and has the ability to portray a murderous lesbian, a psychotic woman, an intelligent scientist, a wayward Brit in Spain, etc. But the less she is like Nikki Wade, the more she's ignored, because the diehards don't want anything to shatter their myopic view of Bad Girls. (That's the irony- the more it's dissected, the narrower the view becomes.) These characters have become real people, and they've become role models. Of course, any word or opinion that goes against Bad Girls (or the characters) is then going to be perceived as a personal slight. No one wants to find out that the person they admire (actor/singer/athlete/character/teacher/friend/parent) is flawed or isn't a paragon of perfection. That would make one re-evaluate their feelings not only of that person, but of themselves. It's easier to label the truth as lies or misperceptions or unimportant than to accept it. Bad Girls was camp and often tacky?? That undermines the very foundation on which these fans have built a large part of their lives. When a fan declares that they had a brilliant thought about some aspect of the show, while they were waiting for the bus, well, I think that says a lot about why some people take any criticism as a personal affront. And why they bask in the praise, too. It reaffirms that they have made the right "choice" in being so passionate about the show/characters. Everyone likes to be told they're right. Very few like to be told they're wrong or misguided.
|
|
|
Post by topcat on May 30, 2008 7:36:03 GMT -5
You have really hit the nail on the head with this. I think your post completely captures the reason for the unbalance of the fan bases. Simone doesn't spoil the idea that Helen is out there and a real person because she doesn't challenge the perception of Helen with her other roles. On the other hand, look at Mandana in something like Born and Bred and there is no sign of Nikki and so some 'fans' don't appear to want to watch it or accept it. Going back to the rather ambiguous announcement back in October last year, I notice a new post in response to a fan wanting everyone to hound the producers of WITB to give Mandana a role in it Unfortunately while a great idea - Mandana is taking time away from acting. This means its unlikely she herself would be interested in any roles for now. We will let people know as soon as we know any differently....We would urge people not to bombard companies with such suggestions because of Mandana's decision to take some time out, since it is likely to do no more at the moment than be a nuisance for the company involved having to spend extra time dealing with these requests. Now, this is not remotely what was posted before. This clearly states that it is Mandana's decision to not take acting work. The 'small announcement' implied that she could not get work. This is exactly what is so exhasperating about communication that is presented to fans. Instead of just passing Mandana's own words on, embellishments are clearly made and all sorts of contradictions. Why? Similarly, fans have asked why Mandana spends so much time in Spain. This was met with complete silence and yet, out there in cyber space, the webmistresses have posted elsewhere 'as most fans know, Mandana's Mother and Stepfather live in Spain'. No, most fans don't know this because it is nowhere on the Mandana specific site and queries in the 'questions for Simone and Mandana' thread went ignored. It's almost as if they forget what they have previously decided to pass on to fans and what they have kept for themselves and their inner circle. Sorry to bring up that other place again, given the thread has been closed.
|
|