Beauty and the Lists

[coolbyrne]

As some of you might know, afterellen has posted a list of the "Hot 100", and while Simone Lahbib made the list, Mandana Jones did not. And some fans are not impressed. (Present company excluded; I give my reasoning below.)

First and foremost, these kinds of lists will ALWAYS generate talk and debate, because they are based solely on subjective choice. Even award shows should be taken with the edge of "meaning" softened, because really, they have little of it. Fans cheer when their favourite is chosen and complain when they're not, because some take it as a validation of their choice ("See? I told you she was hot!") or a rebuke of it ("You can't tell me she's not hot- you're wrong!")

Beauty in particular is always going to open the floodgates of debate. What is "beauty"? And is beauty really in the eye of the beholder? I've gone on to great lengths with RomanMachine discussing this very thing, and how Mandana Jones fits/doesn't fit into what I consider the "societal norm" of beauty. She doesn't fit. Take a look at the top 20 choices of the afterellen list and tell me what you see. I'll tell you what I see- they look all the same to me... with the exception of Natalie Portman, who has her head shaved- SHE looks remarkably identifiable as her own person. (And Jodie Foster has always stood out as her own woman.) If the voters are going by Mandana's look in "Bad Girls" (and I can't imagine they know her from anything else), it's pretty obvious why she didn't make the list.

Playing gay with short dark hair should have gotten her on the list- it got Kate Moening there. Oh, but wait, Nikki's not androgynous. She's not butch. And she doesn't play up the "tough girl" act as say someone like Pink. She's feisty but compassionate. She's mouthy but sensitive. So we've got this short dark-haired tall lanky woman... who doesn't fit the butchy stereotype often associated with that look. Please, don't confuse people! So, to paraphrase The Sound of Music, how do you solve a problem like Mandana?

You don't. So she didn't get chosen on a top 100 list. Whoop-dee-doo! And yes, I would have said the very same thing had she been put on that list. That's okay, Mandana, you're in good company. Also not on the list:

-Tilda Swinton
-Signourney Weaver
-Annie Lennox
-Sinead O'Connor
-Alexandra Hedison
-Rachel Stirling
-Lisa Faulkner


Etc., etc.


Would it have been nice to see Mandana's name on that list? Sure. Would it really have meant anything if it had been on the list? Not really.

Your thoughts?

[topcat]

Well I read about the list on another board and saw that there was a lot of rejoicing for one inclusion and upset at Mandana's omission.

Do you know what? I just think it's an excuse to get people hot under the collar. It serves no real purpose. I can remember that there used to be some ranking system on a particular site a few years ago and fans were always posting 'go and vote for Simone and Mandana on such and such a site'. Why? If it was to vote for Mandana to get a role, I'd be there like a shot but it's just a list that, as coolbyrne says, is purely a reflection of those who voted. As you say, winning an Oscar doesn't really mean you gave the best performance. All sorts of political things come into play. It's just nice if a particular favourite happens to win.

I did go and read some of the comments. One stood out whereby the poster, who had an icon of Mandana's costar, wrote that Mandana acts 'like a highschool actress and don't get me started on her posture..." Now, Mandana fans have not retaliated but could you imagine the backlash if the reverse had happened?

Mandana is an attractive woman. She's very distinctive. A bit exotic even. She has a strong screen presence and has a hugely expressive face. She probably doesn't fit the stereotypical 'hot babe' appeal and I don't think I would want her too!

I am a fan of Mandana's and I didn't vote. I knew nothing of the vote and don't visit the site the vote was held on. Even if I'd known about it, I still wouldn't have voted! Will it help Mandana's career? Not one jot. Will she care? Doubt it - too busy wiping marmite off her walls....

[coolbyrne]

As you say, winning an Oscar doesn't really mean you gave the best performance.

Interesting to note: Cary Grant never won an Oscar. Does it mean he wasn't the best leading actor of his generation? Nope.

One stood out whereby the poster, who had an icon of Mandana's costar, wrote that Mandana acts 'like a highschool actress and don't get me started on her posture..." Now, Mandana fans have not retaliated but could you imagine the backlash if the reverse had happened?

It's hard for me to get into a discussion about the two "camps" of fans, simply because I'm not in both camps. But speaking strictly for myself as a Mandana fan, it's not important to me who's "better" or who's "sexier" or who's more popular- because I just never got that impression it was important to Mandana. And I don't need to slag her co-star in order to make Mandana look better*, because, as I said, it's not important and also, well, Mandana's history speaks for itself. Slagging someone else is often a way to deflect criticism from yourself, but I don't see what criticism needs to be deflected from Mandana. What you see/read/hear is what you get with her, and the majority of it has been overwhelmingly positive. (*I slag her co-star on her own merits. )

She's very distinctive.

And ironically, this is one of the very reasons she'll never make such a list.

I am a fan of Mandana's and I didn't vote. I knew nothing of the vote and don't visit the site the vote was held on. Even if I'd known about it, I still wouldn't have voted! Will it help Mandana's career? Not one jot.

Exactly. I didn't vote, either, and I never advertise those kinds of polls- "Go vote now!" As mentioned, I believe it's more of a validation for fans rather than the actor.

[bgfanusa]

Hiya...1st post to the board, but have been reading it for quite some time. Okay, my 2cents worth. I do read AE but did not participate in the poll. The problem with a poll like that is yes, it is mostly lesbians voting, but it is across such a broad spectrum of age, mostly American...etc...

I recently discovered that I do have Logo TV and started watching it. I cannot believe how poorly they advert the show!!
I caught the BG bug in January and believe it to be one of the best shows ever. Certainly H/N is IMO the best couple pairing ever -..including movies.

When I caught the BG bug I told anyone I knew how great this show is and how you must watch it. You would have thought I was a nutter! No one I know even bothered!!! Guess you can't account for taste. LOL

So...one of the points is that the silly poll really is mostly from a North American (mostly US) POV. LW is crap, but at least we have it. Just like alot of us tv...the shows are dumbed down for the attention span of someone reading whilst using the bog. LOL

Mandana is fantastic. She put such heart/soul into the Nikki portrayal. So did Simone. I like them both. I like Mandana more.
It is a matter of taste...some have it...some don't...

[coolbyrne]

So...one of the points is that the silly poll really is mostly from a North American (mostly US) POV. LW is crap, but at least we have it.

I think this is a very interesting point, too. For all the talk on AE about how different their list is from Maxim's (straight male mag) Top 100, there's no mention about how skewed it is to its own audience (as Maxim is to their audience). And I don't simply mean a lesbian audience- I mean a North American lesbian audience. Note for instance how many actresses from The L Word are on that list- 11 to be exact!! Out of the 100 names, 68 were American and including Canadians (7), that would be 75% North Americans! Only 8 were British, and 17 were "other". (So, there were almost as many Canadians on that list as British women.) What kind of list would a British lesbian site come up with, I wonder? While I don't watch a lot of British shows (mostly due to lack of British access here in Canada), I am quite into British culture, so, while I may not know the context of the shows, where are the women from "Hex" or "Queer as Folk" or, dare I ask, "Sugar Rush"? (Okay, maybe not Sugar Rush. ) I mentioned Lisa Faulkner from "Murder in Suburbia", which is a British show without a lesbian subtext, but quite popular with many British lesbians I know. How about Hermioine Norris? Keeley Hawes? Caroline Goodall? Regionality- just another reason to take these lists with a grain of salt, I suppose!

[topcat]

I have never understood the fan obsession with rankings on obscure websites or popularity polls.

Will Mandana's omission from this 'list' affect how I and other fans view her work? No. Will it prevent her getting other roles. No. Does it mean she's unattractive? No. Does it mean her costar is more popular, a better performer, more glamourous? No, only in the eyes of those who voted on that particular poll.

Did her not winning 'best villain' a few years ago mean she was beaten by a better actress? No. it meant that the actress who won was starring in a prime time drama watched by millions and Mandana was in a relatively small production with a tenth of the audience.

Awards are nice but even an Oscar doesn't guarantee a starry career - ask Louise Fletcher who played Nurse Ratchet in One flew over the Cuckoo's Nest!

So not making the top 100 of some obscure list will not cause a loss of sleep in the Jones' household, I am sure. However, she might be gutted to know that she, apparently, gets asked 'easier' questions by interviews........

[wadewannabee]

Hi, I only viewed ahout half the list as it was slow loading up. I have dial up. Can someone please tell me if their were any Australians on the list? For instance Cate Blanchet?

[coolbyrne]

wadewannabee said:

Hi, I only viewed ahout half the list as it was slow loading up. I have dial up. Can someone please tell me if their were any Australians on the list? For instance Cate Blanchet?

Cate was #48. I think that was it for Aussies. Oh, Nicole Kidman was #94.

[wadewannabee]

Thanks coolbyrne,
I think Cate should be in the top 20. She has amazing eyes!! It's just typical ain't it. Some people have no taste.

[topcat]

I think it's quite interesting that discussion on other boards has suggested that Simone's fanbase has always been bigger. I would disagree. I just think that they seem to attract very different fans. I may be way off but I have always felt that Mandana's fanbase consists of mature (in age) fans. Simone's fanbase has always appeared to be predominently younger girls. This leads to a misbalance in things like numbers of threads posted, polls etc - just a general enthusiasm for internet activity than older fans who may be a little more selective in when, what where they post. Does that make sense? And before I get flamed by younger Mandana fans or older Simone fans or young fans who don't post lots of threads, it's not meant as a criticism, just an observation.

It is true that Simone always seemed to win internet polls but Mandana fans tended to fit into a category of 'what's the point?'. I think this latest poll is a testimony of that. Major Mandana fans here have already admitted they had no interest in voting. I think the age issue plays a huge role in this.

Also, Simone has always been a lot more high profile with the press.

When BG was showing 'live' Simone was in lots of Scottish press articles and doing live chats. Mandana was not. Whether that was by choice or that journalists had no interest, we'll never know. Let's not forget that Helen was, for the first series at least, 'leading lady'. Press always go for leading lady and the villain.

Mandana was (and still is to a degree) a bit of a mystery to fans ;D This makes Simone seem more accessible and there is, without question, far more info on Simone out there than Mandana.

It has been posted elsewhere about Mandana quoting her fanmail as being '60% gay women, 30% straight women and 10% men'. It was suggested that it was wishful thinking on Mandana's part that her male mail (!) was that high. In fact, when BG was aired in Britain, there was MILWM - Men in Love with Mandana!!!

[coolbyrne]

I think it's quite interesting that discussion on other boards has suggested that Simone's fanbase has always been bigger. I would disagree. I just think that they seem to attract very different fans.

Yeah, I do think there is a difference between the size of a fanbase and the participation of one. I think it's interesting that the fans seem to reflect the actor. (Or at least, as far as we can know what the actor feels.) I think Simone is very in tune with the business in terms of where and when and how to get her name out there; I think she's quite business savvy. And I think her fans respond to that. How can they not if she's always courting the publicity aspect of the business? (This isn't meant to be an insult- many, MANY actors play up the publicity; it's a big part of being successful in show business!) She gives the impression that it's a big thing, so her fans follow suit. While I don't know Mandana (just as I don't know Simone, so take all that with a grain of salt), I was always under the impression she could take it or leave it, in terms of outright popularity. Not to say it's not important to her, particularly from a professional point of view (popularity=jobs), but it always seems a bit... laidback to me. And I think MJ fans respond in kind.

It was suggested that it was wishful thinking on Mandana's part that her male mail (!) was that high. In fact, when BG was aired in Britain, there was MILWM - Men in Love with Mandana!!!

A Mandana quote from Pink Paper (2001):

Well, it's funny, but sometimes men call out 'Wheyhey! Pwroar! Oi, Nikki!' to me, and I think to myself: 'Wait a minute! You shouldn't be interested in a dyke like her.

I don't doubt she has her fair share of male admirers!